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Famous Piece of Evidence
I believe that concluding from 'Well gentlemen there is a little woman at our house who is probably more interested in this dispatch than I am’ that Abraham Lincoln is confirming his wife’s primacy in his nomination is to ignore the context in which quote was supposedly spoken. The quote is given to Herndon in a statement by Charles Zane, a fellow attorney, sometime in 1865 Brian Steenbergen ... Grand Rapids - MI... 2008/05/08 - 22:35:56 ( # 1) |
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Famous Piece of Evidence
I am sure many of you have encountered this quote from Lincoln writers. I have a number of times, yet I have never been able to understand why it is given the significance that it is. Here is an example of the quote and the usual inference of its significance from Catherine Clinton in the “Journal of the Abraham Lincoln Association:” "Even Mary's critics give her credit for playing a crucial role in the rise of Lincoln's political fortunes during the 1850s. No one could doubt that her coaching and scheming helped Lincoln attain his nomination as a presidential candidate. Again, her husband confirmed the primacy of Mary's role when, upon learning the results of the 1860 election, he begged off from well-wishers at the telegraph office to take home the good news, confessing, 'Well gentlemen there is a little woman at our house who is probably more interested in this dispatch than I am.' "More interested in this dispatch" betrays his wife's special contribution to Lincoln's political ascension, if we recognize the rarity of Mary's role." How does Lincoln going to inform his wife about his victory and the comment that she is more interested than he is “confirm the primacy of Mary’s role?” How in any way does it show “his wife’s special contribution to Lincoln’s political ascension?” The only thing it goes to is his wife’s ambition for his rise. This was a trait they all shared. I disagree strongly with the Clinton’s point. However, I am more interested in what people think of the use of this quote as evidence. Michael Burkhimer ... Audubon - PA... 2008/05/08 - 19:21:11 ( # 2) |
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Dr, Mudd
Randal, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. My bad. I was responding to your sentence which read, "I am of the opinion that Dr. Mudd is not guilty." I took that to mean total innocence of anything. That's why I responded as I did; I wasn't trying to say Dr. Mudd had prior knowledge of the assassination itself. As far as the difference between Mudd and the others who "aided and abetted," I think one possible explanation was that they were all guilty of being accessories after the fact, but only Dr. Mudd was shown to have had contacts with Booth prior to the fact. I may stand corrected as I don't have the trial testimony memorized, but I do not immediately recall there being evidence any of the others along the escape route had prior meetings with Booth. (An argument regarding John Lloyd could be made at this point, I suppose). I think Dr. Steers and others have essentially argued that Dr. Mudd could have conceivably saved Mr. Lincoln's life by going to the authorities prior to April 14 and reporting what he knew of Booth's kidnap plot. By not going to the authorities, Dr. Mudd therefore willingly remained a part of the kidnap plot and was punished accordingly. It starts to get pretty technical here....were Booth's kidnap and assassination plots two separate entities? Or was the assassination itself simply an outgrowth of the same conspiracy to kidnap? I think Mudd was convicted under the latter assumption, although in my humble opinion he was guilty either way. I do not think the military commission made any distinction between the kidnap and assassination plots. O'Laughlen and Arnold got life for simply being part of the original kidnap plot. Roger Norton ... 2008/05/06 - 05:03:32 ( # 3) |
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Atzerodt "confession" cont.
The reason I don't believe Dr. Mudd didn't know about the plan to assassinate, comes from Atzerodt' cofession to Provost Marshall James McPhail WHILE in custody. "I am certain Dr. Mudd knew all about it, as Booth sent (as he told me) liquors & provisions for the trip with the President to Richmond, about two weeks before the murder to Dr. Mudd's." "Booth never said until the last night (Friday) that he intended to kill the President." That last statement alone is telling. Many authors have implied that Atzerodt wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, and I'm very sure he was under duress when he made the "confession" Remember, he was trying NOT to recieve an invitation to a "necktie" party and was liable to say anything! Thats my 2 cents! Besides, if I recall, his "confession" was'nt allowed during the trial, however, I could be mistaken. Randal Randal Berry ... 2008/05/05 - 17:21:48 ( # 4) |
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Roger
You make an excellent point. I don't think anyone could argue that Mudd wasn't a part of the conspiracy to kidnap, I think Mudd wasn't aware of a plot to murder the President. Only a few, Paine,Herold, etc. knew of the last minute change of plans. My point being the others, Cox, etc. should have recieved the same charges that Mudd did and it has always made me wonder. And yes, "American Brutus" is way beyond anybook written to date on the assassination, this we agree on. Randal Randal Berry ... 2008/05/05 - 13:23:23 ( # 5) |
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spies of the Civil War
I have a young friend looking to learn about the spies during the Civil War...Does anyone have any good information on the tip of their tongue? Thank you so much, as always, for your generous Help. Sincerely, Deanna Deanna Gaberdiel ... Hillsdale, - MI... 2008/05/02 - 15:54:20 ( # 6) |
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"The Union vs Dr. Mudd"
I have now had a chance to go through Hal Higdon's new version of "The Union vs. Dr. Mudd." Unfortunately there are not as many changes as I thought there might be; thus for folks who already have the 1964 edition I would not think it worthwhile to purchase the update. In the new edition, regarding Dr. Mudd's innocence or guilt, Higdon simply says he cannot "improve on the summary answer to this question on pages 210-213 in the first edition of "The Union vs. Dr. Mudd." In that edition Higdon puts Mudd somewhere in that "gray area" between 100% innocence and 100% guilt. He terms Mudd "no simple martyr." Randal, although I usually agree with your thoughts, I have not changed my opinion of the doctor since Mike Kauffman's outstanding book was published. I consider Kauffman's book the best ever published on the topic FAR surpassing most other books on the assassination. But with respect to the (good?) doctor, on that one single issue, I think Ed Steers got it right. My own common sense tells me Mudd was in on it. Although the trial process was flawed, and justice took a back seat while all sorts of transgressions took place, and the commissioners were predisposed to find guilt, I do think the these men made some attempt to acknowledge differing degrees of guilt. For example, Ned Spangler, against whom the evidence was most flimsy, was given 6 years. But the doctor missed the death penalty by one vote. That's a big difference; I am convinced the commissioners, after hearing the evidence presented at trial, were extremely convinced of Mudd's complicity. Plus the commissioners did not hear all the evidence against Mudd. In 1977, 112 years after the trial, George Atzerodt's "lost confession" came to light. Joan L. Chaconas, a past president of the Surratt Society, discovered it. In his confession Atzerodt stated, "I am certain Dr. Mudd knew all about it, as Booth sent (as he told me) liquors & provisions for the trip with the President to Richmond, about two weeks before the murder to Dr. Mudd's." This may be a reference to the earlier kidnap plot, not the assassination, but it certainly implicates Mudd as being part of the group of conspirators. Finally, I think your point on Cox, Mrs. Quesenberry, etc. is excellent. Roger Norton ... 2008/05/02 - 13:37:01 ( # 7) |
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Booth Escaped
Mike, You cannot imagine how frustrating it is at Surratt House Museum to work long and hard for thirty years to get accurate history out to the public and then have certain reporters who want to hear only the "conspiracy" theories. Hold on to your stovepipe hats because there is more to come. Back in 1979, the U.S. public was treated to a terrible movie and subsequent book entitled The Lincoln Conspiracy, which espoused the Booth Escaped Theory. It was thrust upon us by David Balsiger and Charles Sellier. Guess what -- "They're Back..." Their company, Grizzly Adams Productions, recently announced plans to offer a "documentary" on Abraham Lincoln's life and the questionable aspects of his assassination as part of the Lincoln Bicentennial celebration. Good historians can work their fingers to the bone, but they're never going to win! Of that I am convinced. Laurie Verge ... Clinton - MD... 2008/04/29 - 10:44:11 ( # 8) |
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Another Booth Escaped Article.
From the Philadelphia Inquirer: http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20080426_Did_Lincoln_s_assassin_escape__Science_may_finally_lay_debate_to_rest.html From the article: "'It's one thing if historians want to disagree with us, but it's hubris to say that it's impossible [we're] right. What kind of historian is that?' 'It's not too late to set the record straight,' added Herman. 'This is not a minor footnote in history.' Most experts 'have a vested interest in keeping the standard story unchanged . . . but I'm convinced it wasn't Booth" at the barn,' said Guttridge, coauthor of Dark Union: The Secret Web of Profiteers, Politicians, and Booth Conspirators That Led to Lincoln's Death." Vested interest? Why do newspaper writers even take the time to write this stuff? Michael Burkhimer ... Audubon - PA... 2008/04/29 - 05:36:47 ( # 9) |
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Milk Sickness
No one really knows what caused Nancy Lincoln's death. The more you look, the more questions come up. Most documentation, however, has centered on the coincidence of Milk Sickness in the area at the time of her death. There is an excellent recent article,"The 'Slows', the Torment of Milk Sickness on the Midwest Frontier" in Pioneer Midwest" in INDIANA MAGAZINE OF HISTORY, Vol. 102, No.1, March 2006, pg. 29-40, by Walter J. Daly. One question has been, "Why didn't young Lincoln drink his milk?" If he would have, he too would have contacted tremetol poisoning.There are some records of children in the area dieing of milksickness, about this time, who drank their milk. The article suggests that the poison can possibly be transmitted in a "pot of greens", where white snakeroot could have been accidently introduced. As a young boy he might be less inclined to eat the "greens" than drink his milk. His mother may have made a pot for her aunt and uncle who were old and lived near-by and ate some herself. All three died. A less likely scenario might be that the possible poison was not caused by the white snakeroot but by another poison.Lincoln never smoked and he never said why. The three family members that died were all adults and may have smoked, as did many rural southern adults male and female. The skimpy accounts of the symptoms could be similar to extreme toxicity caused by smoking Jimsonweed a hallucinogen used by many rural people at the time. This would scare any young kid from future smoking. Who knows! Tremetol poisoning is still our best bet. Robert J. Havlik ... south bend - IN... 2008/04/28 - 15:36:23 ( # 10) |
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"New" Book on Dr. Mudd
Roger, It will be interesting to read Higdons new "epilogue" in the reprint of "The Union v. Dr. Mudd". It will also be of interest to see if he sides with Hall/Steers, or Kauffman/McHale. I am of the opinion that Dr. Mudd is not guilty. History tells us Booth hadn't orginally planned on going to Mudd's house after leaving Surratts Tavern but sought treatment at Mudd's after being inconvenienced by his injury. My opinion is, if he wasn't injured, why on earth would he stop at Mudd's at 4 in the morning? Coffee and conversation perhaps? Sorry for the digression! Here's a quote from Ed Steers,(August 15, 1997) "The government proved, and subsequently convicted Mudd of the specification that he conspired with John Wilkes Booth in Booth's conspiracy to capture Abraham Lincoln; a conspiracy which ultimately led to Lincoln's murder, and that he knowingly aided and abetted Booth in his effort to escape the federal authorities. There is no doubt among any reasonable student of the assassination that Mudd knew Booth when he came to his house in the early morning hours of April 15, 1865, and that Mudd learned of Lincoln's murder while Booth was still a "patient" of Mudd's. This proves aiding and abetting the murderer of President Lincoln." I have always wondered about the charges brought against Dr. Mudd, and WHY the same charges didn't apply against Cox, Ouesenberry, Jett and many others who "aided and abetted" Booth during his flight. Any takers? Randal Berry ... 2008/04/26 - 07:42:15 ( # 11) |
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"New" book on Dr. Mudd
A short time ago Mike posted information about a new book on Mary Surratt. Now I have just been informed by the University Press of Florida that a "new" book on Dr. Mudd will be coming out this spring. The publisher is sending me an advance copy. The reason I use "new" in parentheses is that the new book is an updated edition of Hal Higdon's 1964 publication entitled "The Union vs. Dr. Mudd." Higdon's original effort was quite evenly balanced toward the doctor although it was obvious Higdon felt Mudd was guilty of at least some degree of complicity. It will be interesting to see how and if Higdon thinks differently 44 years after his original book on the topic was published. I am led to understand that there will be a totally new introduction and epilogue; I do not know how many other changes there will be, but I expect there will be some. With all of the debate that has gone on, and with the differing opinions of experts like Mike Kauffman and Ed Steers, I am looking forward to what Higdon has to say regarding the doctor. Roger Norton ... 2008/04/25 - 11:45:06 ( # 12) |
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Deaths of Nancy & Sarah
Kurt, The tales of Lincoln's mother's death are spun from very thin reeds -- just seven sentences, uttered by six people, 40 years after the fact, to William Herndon. Four of the people said she died of the milk sick. The other two thought it was something else, e.g. "a galloping quick consumption" to use Herndon's words. All of the "up close and personal" accounts of her passing are extrapolations from the milk sick diagnosis. I would not put any stock in them. The fullest account of Sarah Lincoln's death is in a 1933 book by Dr. Milton Shutes. He recounted stories that were still being told in south Indiana. I got a little more from his papers at the University of the Pacific in Stockton, CA. The primary source data are reprinted in _The Physical Lincoln Sourcebook_. If anyone knows of any additional primary data, I'd love to hear about it. J Sotos ... California - USA... 2008/04/24 - 05:03:03 ( # 13) |
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Early deaths
Kurt, Another more psychohistorical work is Charles Strozier's "Lincoln's Quest for Union". This work is more analytical theory but it does attempt to place these deaths and other incidents in Lincoln's life in a psychological/psychoanalytical context. Again, take it for what it is attempting to convey - one author's viewpoints. Still, it is definetly worth the read. Kim Bauer ... decatur - IL... 2008/04/23 - 09:58:48 ( # 14) |
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Sarah Bush Lincoln
Skip; Here is a website that will give you a good deal of information about Lincoln's family, and his stepmother, Sarah Bush Lincoln. http://www.nps.gov/archive/liho/family/sarah.htm Regards, Jerry Eagon Jerry Eagon ... Elkhart - IN... 2008/04/22 - 15:47:42 ( # 15) |
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Lincoln Stepmother
I would like to know more about Mr. Lincoln's Stepmother Sarah Bush. I know she lived to see him become President and also recieve the news of his death. How often did he write her and did he ever have contact with his step brothers and sisters. Skip ... Lakeside Park - Kentucky... 2008/04/22 - 10:12:17 ( # 16) |
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Nancy Hanks and Sarah Lincoln
To Kurt Kruppenink- One of the best sources for your inquiry is Louis A. Warren's "Lincoln's Youth: Indiana Years Seven to Twenty-one, 1816-1830. It is still available. Joseph M Di Cola ... Queen Creek - AZ... 2008/04/21 - 13:14:25 ( # 17) |
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Early deaths
Can anyone recommend the best sources for information concerning the death of Lincoln's mother and his sister Sarah? Would these be from biographies or are there any specific works that describe their deaths and Lincoln's feelings and reactions to them? Any help in this regard would be greatly appreciated. Kurt Cruppenink ... Westville - IL... 2008/04/21 - 08:21:21 ( # 18) |
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Booth diary entry
Kim, thank you very much for your outstanding insight and analysis. I think you've nailed it! Roger Norton ... 2008/04/16 - 08:09:21 ( # 19) |
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Booth's diary
Dear Roger, I have long thought that the passage you mention is based on Booth's great desire to clearly and succinctly state his case before the American public. I don't think that Booth had any thoughts that he would be able to ever overcome the overwhelming evidence against him and what he had done. On the contrary, I believe that Booth seriously thought that he could give his thoughts and exclamations about his reasonings in a public court of law. After all, Booth was ego driven to the point that he believed that he- one of the Nation's greatest actors could do best what others could not do - tell his own side to the story. I honestly do believe that there was only one driving force that was stronger in Booth's mind that prevented him from returning to Washington, fear of death before he would have that chance. In the end, I think his last thoughts were of the the waste that his act had been,the waste in seeing this act go unrecognized by the people of the South. It is in this delusional state of mind that Booth wished that he had, (my opinion), one more stage to act out the final part of his minds' play a tragedy in the truest sense of the word. Kim Bauer ... Decatur - Illinois... 2008/04/15 - 16:34:42 ( # 20) |
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JWB Escape Tour, HOLY COW!
All, If you haven't experienced the John Wilkes Booth Escape Tour hosted by the Surratt House Museum, you are missing an incredible event! I just went this past weekend and it's an incredible tour! To actually see the places where Booth/Herold and everyone involved in the assassination makes everything you have read about it come to life! The spring tours have sold out, but, if you go to http://www.surratt.org/su_bert.html you might just be lucky enough to participate in the fall escape tours. It is already a solid-gold memory for me, and Mr. Kauffman leaves no stone unturned on this story. I'm telling ya, GO! I'm going again, I swear! Randal Berry ... 2008/04/15 - 15:00:18 ( # 21) |
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Booth's diary
Thanks, Randal. I must admit I am really just guessing as I find getting inside Booth's mind quite difficult. But that's partly what makes studying the assassination so fascinating; so many of the answers are simply not known. Of course it's possible Booth was referring to the carnage at Seward's home, but I think that Booth knew (1) Seward wouldn't be alone and (2) the mindset of Powell; thus I do not think he would be really too surprised at the possibility of other folks being maliciously attacked. Yet another statement in the diary has long intrigued me. This is where Booth writes, "Though I have a greater desire and almost a mind to return to Washington, and in a measure clear my name - which I feel I can do." Any ideas on that one? Roger Norton ... 2008/04/11 - 12:24:38 ( # 22) |
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Re-thinking,and re-reading, I agree with Mr. Norton. I always thought JWB was writing about the carnage at Sewards residence. Roger's opinion makes more sense. Randal Berry Randal Berry ... 2008/04/10 - 21:32:40 ( # 23) |
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Booth's diary
I think I agree with what Jerry Eagon said. Thomas Jones gave Booth newspapers during the time he was in hiding, and Booth certainly found out how universally negative the reaction was to his crime. For example, Confederate General Joseph E. Johnston is said to have exclaimed, "It's a disgrace to the age! I hope the North will not charge it to the Confederate Government." Booth was a monomaniac of the subject of Lincoln being the South's enemy, and it must have filled Booth with horror to see Copperheads, Southern leaders, etc. not coming to his support as he had hoped. In his own mind his act was heroic, but it came as such a shock when those he depended upon didn't view it that way. Booth may also have been horrified by the way the Northern government swooped down and arrested hundreds of people Booth knew to be innocent. Booth had a morbid quest for notoriety and to see hundreds of people being arrested because of his act must have horrified him as he would have felt no one else should be allowed the "limelight." There is another diary entry that I have always wondered about. This is when Booth says, "The little, the very little, I left behind to clear my name, the Government will not allow to be printed." It can be assumed, I guess, that this was a reference to the letter he gave to John Mathews, but from what Mathews said I can't see how the letter would have cleared Booth's name. Is there any other explanation for this statement of Booth's? Roger Norton ... 2008/04/10 - 04:52:13 ( # 24) |
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Booths Diary
Steve, I always assumed Booth was writing about what happened at Sewards residence that night. Maybe Mr. K will chime in and give us his thoughts. Randal Randal Berry ... 2008/04/09 - 18:06:01 ( # 25) |
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Booth
Having read that passage a number of times and, like yourself, wondering exactly what Booth meant, I can only read it in the context of what he wrote before that sentence, and after. He is writing about his condemnation, how he has hurt his family and his cause by his deed. My sense of that is that he is referring to the hate and bitterness that has now been directed at him, and that he has "heard" of these things, namely the price on his head, the dead or alive mentality, speaking of "these things" as an abstract - separate from himself. I could be wrong. It would be interesting to know exactly what he heard of the assassination aftermath during his desperate days of running. What did he know? Who told him? Jre Jerry Eagon ... Elkhart - IN... 2008/04/09 - 11:59:20 ( # 26) |
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Booth Diary Entry
I'm no assassination expert-I'm no expert at/on anything- but I think what Powell did filled Booth with horror--from what I have read, the plan was to attack Sec. of State Seward--not the whole family. But what did anyone in the conspiracy expect when the Sewards had a full house being as family members lived there? Cheryl ... 2008/04/09 - 09:41:56 ( # 27) |
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Booth's Diary mystery
There's a phrase in Booth's "diary" that has always puzzled me. He wrote: "I have only heard of what has been done (except what I did myself), and it fills me with horror." Was he talking about Powell's attack on the Seward family, the violence that followed in the wake of the news of the assassination, or something else? I'm curious about what the Mailbag readers think of this. Steven G. Miller ... Lake Villa - IL... 2008/04/08 - 16:52:54 ( # 28) |
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OMNIBUS
Thanks, Mark Reinhart--I greatly appreciate the information.-Joe Di Cola Joseph M Di Cola ... Queen Creek - AZ... 2008/04/06 - 15:19:37 ( # 29) |
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Larson Book
At Surratt House Museum, we are eagerly awaiting the release of Kate Larson's book on Mary Surratt. Ms. Larson did research here at our James O. Hall Research Center, and we were quite pleased to learn that she is presenting both sides of the Surratt story. We have stressed to visitors for over thirty years that there is much more to Mary Elizabeth Surratt than what historians have told us in the past. Her history is a fascinating one that more people should know about. Laurie Verge ... Clinton - MD... 2008/04/02 - 16:24:34 ( # 30) |
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Mike, Thanks for the heads up on the Surratt book. I can't wait! I have always believed she was a tad more guilty than most folks thought. Randal Randal Berry ... 2008/04/01 - 21:32:49 ( # 31) |
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Omnibus
The OMNIBUS program you are thinking of was a 5-part series called MR. LINCOLN. The series starred Royal Dano as Lincoln, and first aired in 1952. MR. LINCOLN dealt mainly with Lincoln's formative years, but the first episode chronicled Lincoln's assassination. Unfortunately, the series has never been released on home video. Mark Reinhart ... Columbus - Ohio... 2008/04/01 - 08:38:20 ( # 32) |
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New Assassination Book on Mary Surratt
Hello all, I thought some of the posters on this forum would be interested in this. As the Review Editor of the “Lincoln Herald,” I sometimes get samples of books for review. I received an advanced copy of “The Assassin’s Accomplice: Mary Surratt and the Plot to Kill Abraham Lincoln” by Kate Clifford Larson. The book is to be published in June by Basic Books. They usually produce very high quality books. I have not read through the book, however it does look interesting. From what I have skimmed of the book it is very negative towards Mary Surratt and seems almost a rebuttal to the more recent Trindal book. The author has a lot of good to say about some of the people in the assassination community in her acknowledgements and very much praises the work of the Surratt Society. Mike Burkkhimer ... Audubon - PA... 2008/04/01 - 08:02:36 ( # 33) |
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Omnibus
Years ago, in the 1950's. there was a superb television show called Omnibus. During its run, it aired a number of programs on the life of Abraham Lincoln. Is anyone aware whether there are copies of those broadcasts still available? Thanks. Joseph M Di Cola ... Queen Creek - AZ... 2008/03/31 - 13:23:41 ( # 34) |
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Lincoln's Secretary's
Lincoln had two personal secretary's, John HAY and John Nicolay. Perhaps the Hall is mistaken for Hay. You can check out detail about them, and Lincoln at this website: http://abrahamlincolnsclassroom.org/Library/newsletter.asp?ID=22&CRLI=102 Jerry Eagon ... Elkhart - IN... 2008/03/31 - 07:38:02 ( # 35) |
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Lincoln's Church.. where is it today?
In 1912 the First Presbyterian Church, downtown near the railroad tracks was torn down and a new First Presbyterian Church was opened in its current location. The church that was torn down was the church that Abraham Lincoln and his family attended. Benjamin Knudson bought the bricks,pillars, stain-glassed windows and wood from the church and placed it in storage until he could locate some land in the north end to rebuild the church in memory of his wife, Clementine. In 1917, Clementine Memorial Presbyterian Church officially opened at 2075 N. 11th. It was a new home for Abraham Lincoln's church. The pillars still remain in the vestibule and the stain-glass windows still reflect their colors in the windows. Bricks and wood that was salvaged still hold the church in place. The church remained Presbyterian until October of 2003 when it officially was transferred by the membership to a Independent Non-denominatioanl church. Except for a seven month period when the church was vacated over mishaps concerning back taxes prior to 2003, the church has been open. Thousands have heard God's message within these historic walls, including President Abraham Lincoln and his family, when the building was located downtown. Thousands more have heard God's message here in it's current location. Sonatas and Cantatas have rang forth in melodious praise. God has blessed those who have entered and those who have left. Preachers have presented over 5000 of God's messages from the pulpit since Abraham Lincoln's day and many more than that since the structure was originally built by those railroad tracks downtown. Today the church houses many ministries and outreach programs for children and adults and offers many opportunities for Christians to serve the Lord. Pastor Dennis Farmer ... Springfield - Illinois... 2008/03/29 - 09:08:03 ( # 36) |
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Lincoln's secretary
It is a story in my husbands family that Lincoln had a secretary with the last name Hall. If anyone can help me find this info, in print, I would appreciate it. Thank you, Kathy Kathy Hall ... Chicago - IL... 2008/03/28 - 10:52:24 ( # 37) |
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Lincoln's funeral guards
Check this following website: http://www.homeofheroes.com/moh/corrections/lincoln_burial.html Jerry eagon ... Elkhart - Indiana... 2008/03/27 - 15:32:02 ( # 38) |
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Guards at Lincoln's Body Laying in State
Might anyone know where to find the names of the soldiers who stood guard over the remains of Abraham Lincoln when the President's body lay in state? I've read that one Augustus Golderman of the 17th Maine Vol. Inf. was one such soldier - and am hoping to find some confirmation. Thanks you. godwillen@gmail.com s.r. willen ... beverly hills - california... 2008/03/27 - 13:11:25 ( # 39) |
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Lincoln Carriage
Just a note to let you know that my third attempt at reaching a real person at the Studebaker Museum worked. A very nice curator of collections responded and I was able to obtain a photo, which I will be sharing with Mr. Osborne. Mr. Havlik, thank you for your input and may I ask for your help. Based on the recent newspaper articles, I included a snippet about the Lincoln carriage in the April issue of the Surratt Courier, the monthly newsletter put out by the Surratt House Museum. That means I probably passed on some erroneous information. When you have completed your research, could you share it with the Courier and also with our museum's James O. Hall Research Center? Laurie Verge ... Clinton - MD... 2008/03/26 - 12:53:12 ( # 40) |
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Lincoln Carriage
Hello Laurie, That was a fine gesture. I will email you shortly. By the way I am a lifetime member of Surratt Society. Regards, Seward Seward R. Osborne ... Olivebridge - NY... 2008/03/26 - 12:21:48 ( # 41) |
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Lincoln Carriages
Hi All, My name is Bob Havlik. I am a past President of the Lincoln Group of the District of Columbia. I retired from Notre Dame and live in South Bend, IN. I have been working on a paper about the horses and carriages used by Lincoln through out his career. The Studebaker Museum is close-by and of course is included. The museum just refurbished the barouche Lincoln used and there were several newspaper articles about it. Over the years there have been many articles and errors in its provenance as reported in the news papers. Some have said the carriage was made by the Studebakers (not true) and many have said it was a gift to Lincoln just before his second inauguration (also not true) My research so far indicates he received a gift of a closed carriage for his first inauguration and that Mary Lincoln bought the open carriage shortly after. They may also have had a had a third carriage supplied by the Government, which Mary Lincoln mentioned, but my research has not yet come up with a description. The second inauguration story came from an erronious story published in 1935. The curator of the museum recently distributed a copy to our local paper. An article was written using this story and it was picked up by AP and other internet sources. Because of the sensitivity of the information, I am awaiting the completion of my research and conclusions before I submit my results to the Museum. So far the Curator and Director of the Studebaker Museum have been very gracious to me and any one asking for information on the carriage. Recently a new Studebaker Arcives Collection opened near the Museum, but is a separate organization. I have yet to visit them and I am sure they will have much good information. BOB HAVLIK Robert J. Havlik ... south Bend - IN... 2008/03/26 - 12:10:23 ( # 42) |
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Laurie Verge Rocks!
You rock Laurie! That was a terrific gesture! RB Randal Berry ... 2008/03/22 - 21:59:51 ( # 43) |
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Lincoln Carriage
As director of Surratt House Museum in Maryland, I have contacted the webpage at the Studebaker Museum in the past, trying to get information on the carriage. They have never bothered to respond. However, one of our fellow Lincolnites from this excellent site shared some newspaper clippings with us regarding the history -- thank you, Roger Norton. If you have a specific contact at Studebaker that quoted the price to you, I will be happy to order a photo for Surratt House and to make a copy for you. Contact me at laurie.verge@pgparks.com, if interested. I will also need your e-mail and snail mail address if we pull this off. Laurie Verge ... Clinton - MD... 2008/03/21 - 14:02:16 ( # 44) |
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President Lincoln's carriage
Hello, Does anyone have a clear side view of the carriage that President Lincoln and guests used to go to Ford's Theatre? As a 100% disabled veteran I cannot afford the $25 per image that the Studebaker Museum wants. Many thanks, Seward Seward R. Osborne ... Olivebridge - New York... 2008/03/21 - 12:28:15 ( # 45) |
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Sending slaves back
Actually, Lincoln considered the purchase of slaves from their owners in order to send them back to their homeland, considering it was cheaper than financing the war. The idea never gained traction however, and was superceded by the Emancipation Proclamation. Frederick Douglass might be the "black leader" you refer to, although he was definitely NOT for purchasing slaves and sending them back. His position was that they were here before slaving trade began in earnest, and that they had a right to live here. Jerry Eagon ... Elkhart - Indiana... 2008/03/20 - 09:19:32 ( # 46) |
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"send us home"
Can anyone tell me about the black leader who asked President Lincoln to send all the slaves home as the races would never live in harmony thanks. from : rooster56@chesnet.net ross erwin ... chesnee - south carolina... 2008/03/18 - 08:41:34 ( # 47) |
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My Email Address
I see from a Yahoo search that somebody that has written to the Lincoln Mailbag is looking to contact me. My email address is: lnikolai@earthlink.net Thanks- Larry Larry Nikolai ... Valencia - Ca... 2008/03/17 - 01:37:30 ( # 48) |
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Lincoln as Black
The hypothesis that Abraham Lincoln was black (had subsaharan African ancestry) is probably not true, but not it is not as unlikely as the hypothesis that he suffered some rare genetic disorder that may have killed him in office or affected his appearance. After all, about 10% of all citizens in this country identify themselves as African American, and probably at least as large a percentage of citizens who identify themselves as white have some African American Ancestry (I had genetic testing done, and discovered I am in that latter category). Therefore a prima facie case can be made that speculation about Abraham Lincoln's possible subsaharan African ancestry is neither absurd nor outrageous. The contemporaneous claims that he had black ancestry cannot be rejected out of hand simply because they were plainly hateful and politically motivated. The same can be said about contemporaneous claims that Thomas Jefferson had children by his slave, Sally Hemmings, which we now know were almost certainly correct (contrary to denials by respected historians that they were absurd and outrageous - where have we heard those descriptors before?) or that President Harding had black ancestry (I believe he himself is said to have remarked that some of his ancestors "may have jumped over the fence..."). I think that what can be said with a fair degree of certainty is that IF (admittedly a very big IF) Abraham Lincoln did have Black ancestry: A) It would have been through his mother; B) He would have known about it; C) He would have been loath to admit it; D) It could have had a significant impact on his political and personal development; and E) If confirmed, it would require a rethinking of his life, his writings and possibly even his assasination. The one piece of evidence supporting this hypothesis that has long intrigued me comes from William Herndon, his law partner. He reports report that Lincoln told him his mother, Nancy, was fathered by someone from a plantation owning family. Of course, this speculation could be resolved immediately by DNA testing (or by mitochondrial DNA if the aim were to nail down his maternal ancestry) of existing tissue samples. I guess this comment is an argument that, with respect to this question (whether Abraham Lincoln had subsaharan African Ancestry), such testing may be warranted. Rick Roderick Fox ... Nashville - Tennessee... 2008/03/15 - 14:52:01 ( # 49) |
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What it is
What's going on is no different than the last 150 years of speculation, sniping, valid research, backstabbing, educated guesses, etc. for/against/about Lincoln. The general public spread wild rumors. Egocentric researchers try to prove screwball points. Historians try to explain, revise and explain again. I also grow weary of some of it, but I always step back. All the wild verbage and genuine research out there only validate that we are dealing with one of the most complex and intriguing persons in the long saga of humanity. Kent Tucker ... Rantoul - Illinois... 2008/03/14 - 16:54:15 ( # 50) |
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Whats going on?
Lately when I check on comments posted on Friends of Lincoln, I only seem to find outrageous comments, questions or rumors concerning President Lincoln. Silly stuff about Lincoln being part black, or that he had some disease and wouldn't have lived long in his second term of office. I like reading stories and comments on how he did things or his way of thinking and even the way others thought and dealt with Mr. Lincoln. John ... Lakeside Park - Ky... 2008/03/14 - 09:14:50 ( # 51) |
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President Lincoln Facing Right On The Penny
The current discussion is an excellent example of what I meant when I said a ton of misinformation about President Lincoln circulates among the general public. Here is the text of an e-mail I received on December 16, 2006: "I have been told that Abraham Lincoln’s mother has Negro blood. I understand this may sound odd, but it is a serious question that I am debating with someone. This argument started when someone told me about why Lincoln is facing the opposite direction from the other presidents on other coins. They said that it is a fact that he is facing the opposite way because his mother has Negro blood and that he is a disgrace to the American people. Can you provide the truth to settle this argument? Thank you." Roger Norton ... 2008/03/14 - 04:45:06 ( # 52) |
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J.A. Rogers Book
Laurie, The book by J.A. Rogers is called "Five Negro Presidents" and it's really cheap on Amazon. Randal Randal Berry ... 2008/03/12 - 20:47:36 ( # 53) |
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Lincoln black?
I have just learned that the correct title of the book dealing with the racial make-up of five of our presidents is correctly titled "The Five Negro Presidents," and it is still available through Amazon, Target, and online distributors. Laurie Verge ... Clinton - MD... 2008/03/12 - 09:51:56 ( # 54) |
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Re: Abe Lincoln was part black?
There is a footnote about this in my upcoming book, "The Physical Lincoln." (1) In Lincoln's time there were rumors that he was part black, so this meme has a very old history! (2) Even today, a serious Lincoln scholar told me about an unpublished manuscript by a physician that "establishes" that Lincoln was part black, based on certain facial features, including the lips. (3) Lincoln did have a large lower lip. This, however, was a result of the genetic malady that afflicted him, Tad, Willie, Eddie (probably), and Lincoln's mother (probably). The details are in "The Physical Lincoln," which, no fooling, should be out next week. (4) There are innumerable eyewitness descriptions of Lincoln's skin. Some (including Lincoln himself) say he was "dark" complected, but most descriptions talk about him being "sallow" -- i.e. yellow -- for which I have no good explanation. (5) There is no good reason to believe that Lincoln was part black. Thanks, John John Sotos, MD ... California - USA... 2008/03/11 - 14:58:43 ( # 55) |
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Lincoln Black?
Working at the Surratt House Museum, a site with ties to the Lincoln assassination, I encountered this theory years ago with elementary school groups informing me that Abraham Lincoln was black. The closest that I ever got to tracking it down was being told about a book entitled "Five Black Presidents" by J.A. Rogers, a black historian and sociologist, published about 1965. I have never seen the book, but supposedly Rogers pronounces that Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, Harding, and Eisenhower were all of mixed race. He also throws in Lincoln's first vice president, Hannibal Hamlin, and Alexander Hamilton, whose mother was supposedly bi-racial. I have no idea what the "proof" is for any of the claims. Is anyone familiar with this book? Laurie Verge ... Clinton - MD... 2008/03/11 - 14:40:13 ( # 56) |
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Lincoln Memorial
Jordan, To receive help with your Lincoln Memorial project, please e-mail Michael_Kelly@nps.gov. Mike is one of the Rangers assigned to the Washington Mall, and I am told that he is very knowledgeable on the Lincoln Memorial. There is also a good book, "A Memorial for Mr. Lincoln," by Brent Ashabranner, published in 1992 by G.P. Putnam's Sons. Laurie Verge ... Clinton - MD... 2008/03/11 - 10:59:23 ( # 57) |
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Abe Lincoln was part black?
Apparently the English teachers at our school are telling the kids that Abraham Lincoln was part black and that Barack Obama won't be the first black president elected in the United States. As a US History teacher, I am puzzled by this, because I have never heard, in all of my years in education that Abraham Lincoln is part black. If anyone can shed some light on this, we'd appreciate it. If you can't and you know of someone who may be able to, would you please forward this email to them. Dodi McVey ... Cypress (Houston) - Texas... 2008/03/11 - 09:57:06 ( # 58) |
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Jordon, I would email nps.gov Randal Berry ... 2008/03/10 - 22:42:30 ( # 59) |
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Help
please help me find someone that i can email to interview about the lincoln memorial Jordan Hartman ... Bloomfield - Indiana... 2008/03/06 - 16:39:41 ( # 60) |
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Fort Wayne Lincoln Museum
It is certainly disappointing to hear that the Lincoln Museum in Fort Wayne is closing. I’ve always thought of them as the “original” Lincoln Museum The presentation of the exhibits is concise and inviting. The special programming, including the annual McMurty Lecture have been highlights on my Lincoln calendar. Best wishes to Joan Flinspach, and Sara Gabbard and the rest of that outstanding staff. “My Friends: No one, not in my situation, can appreciate my feelings of sadness at this parting. To this place, and the kindness of these people, I owe everything. …To His care commending you, as I hope in your prayers you will commend me, I bid you an affectionate farewell. “ Brian Steenbergen ... Grand Rapids - MI... 2008/03/06 - 19:40:46 ( # 61) |
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Roger Norton
Thanks Mr. Norton. I should have included Mr. Hatch's wonderful newsletter, it's a great one! Also, Roger Norton has a "must see" website, http://members.aol.com/RVSNorton/Lincoln.html Randal Berry Randal Berry ... 2008/03/05 - 20:02:24 ( # 62) |
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"Surratt Courier"
Just a note to second Randal Berry's comment on "The Surratt Courier." Also, another publication which is a wonderful read (and a great value) is Frederick Hatch's "Journal of the Lincoln Assassination." Mr. Hatch, who has researched the assassination for over 25 years, is scheduled to speak at the Surratt House Museum 2008 Conference in late March. Roger ... Norton... 2008/03/05 - 10:06:06 ( # 63) |
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Lincoln Museum closing
There is a notice on the Lincoln Museum web site that the Ft. Wayne museum will be closed to the public effective June 30. The notice provides the reasons. Kent Tucker ... Rantoul - Illinois... 2008/03/05 - 00:48:36 ( # 64) |
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Dismantling Eisenschiml and Bates
The recent issue of The Surratt Courier has an excellent article authored by Blaine V. Houmes,MD, titled "The Mummy,The Autopsy, And The Rest of the Story" Dr. Houmes gets to the heart of the story regarding David E. George the man who "claimed" he was John Wilkes Booth before his death. Otto Eisenschiml and Finis Bates both wrote best selling books claiming that JWB, (or a "double") "escaped" Garretts barn during that fateful night and in later years "confessed" to friends, that he was indeed JWB! I am sure that most of you know the story and the books published by these two gentlemen. Dr. Houmes effectively dismantles these "theories". It is a "must read" article, very well researched. I suggest joining The Surratt Society(http://www.surratt.org/index.html to recieve this article. Randal Berry Randal Berry ... 2008/03/04 - 08:29:01 ( # 65) |
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